Smokin' Hot Older Men and Women

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MB: This is Dr. Michael Brickey with Ageless Lifestyles Radio, cutting-edge thinking for being youthful at every age. On each show I interview experts on what it takes to live longer, healthier, and happier. Our program takes a holistic approach in addressing anti-aging psychology, medicine, alternative medicine, fitness, nutrition, and wellness. Our emphasis is on innovative thinking and practices that have solid data and results.

Today’s show: Why older women are smokin’ hot. Today’s guest is ATLAST publisher Anne Havelock. Anne Havelock knows a lot of the secrets for how to look great at every age and have sex appeal to boot. A hair stylist and salon owner, she found her self showing older clients how to look fabulous at 50 and sexy at 60. She is the publisher of ATLAST Magazine, now in its fifth year, a hairstyle/personal image magazine for men and women over 45. And she’s also a professional speaker. So, Anne, what makes a woman look old?

AH: Part of it’s her attitude and an old-fashioned hairstyle. What I mean by their attitude is society has a thing against getting older, and so they pick this up and they’re old and they look in the mirror and they see what society is telling them, and so they give in. And they keep their old-fashioned hairstyle. They wear matronly clothing. And if they wear makeup, it’s usually too dark, too much foundation. Hair color is usually too dark, which shows every line in their face. And if it’s too light a hair color that they’ve had their hair colored, it washes their features out.

MB: Okay, well, let me slow you down. How do you know if a hair style is out of date?

AH: If you remember the old-fashioned shampoo sets that are glued in for the whole week and they don’t do anything with it until they come back to the salon the next week, the wind can’t blow through their hair, and it is set – you don’t touch their hair. And they won’t let you touch their hair. And there’s also women that wore their hair long when they were younger and they still keep it too long, which drags their features down. And unfortunately, one of the things about getting older is we lose the elasticity in our skin. And when we have hair too long, pulling down our facial features, it really ages us. And also, some of the women, as they get older, it’s easier for them to just get a frizzy perm on their hair and just have it cut and they don’t do anything with it.

MB: A lot of hair stylists are probably happy to just do what they did last time because it’s a little easier. How does a woman know how to – what to ask her hair stylist, or even if her hair stylist knows what to do or how to find a great hair style for a woman’s age and style and lifestyle?

AH: Well, and this goes for men and women – they need to go in and talk to – if they already have a hair stylist or a barber who cuts their hair, they should ask them, “Can we have a consultation?” And just talk about the things that they’re tired of. I, as a hairdresser, especially when I get a new client in, this is the first thing I do, is I set them in my chair and we talk about what they don’t want to see anymore in their hair styles. And then I ask them what their lifestyle is like and why they want it changed – is it for them or is it to try to look younger, you know, to keep up with the Jones or whatever? And by the time we get through with that consultation, we both have a pretty good idea of what they want. But even so, if I sense a fear in this client, I take it real slow and easy and I walk them through the process. And by the time I get halfway through with their haircut – I watch their face in the mirror while I’m cutting their hair, and when I see the expression on their face, I know I’ve made a client out of them I mean, I’ve made them happy. They feel better, they look younger, and they’ve got a spring in their step, and they give me a hug before they go out the door.

MB: Do older women need a particular length of hair, or…?

AH: Well, it varies. If I have a client that wants to keep long hair, I encourage them to layer it around their face and to build it up on the top of their crown so that it’s a little bit higher and it’s not flat. But basically I try to really tell them the reason, and I show it to them in the mirror, how if they don’t layer it around their face, it’s going to age them.

MB: What do women and men need to know about skin tone and hair color?

AH: Well, they need to know that, as we age, our skin tones lighten up. So if we were a dark brunette when we were younger, we cannot wear that color now because it’s going to show every line in our face. And hair color, natural hair color that has never been chemically colored is not one shade of color; it is seven to eight different shades. So the mistake most women make when they want to color their hair have their stylist color their hair, is they put one shade of color on their hair, and it’s fake, and it’s very noticeable that it’s fake.

MB: We’ve all seen that.

AH: It does look better than the gray hair, I agree. But I weave different shades of color – at least two to three different shades of color – in gray hair, and it tones down the gray and it looks like their own natural color.

MB: Do you also talk with people about how they often have to change their wardrobe, because as their skin tones change and their hair color changes, what colors were flattering to them aren’t anymore?

AH: Exactly. And the best way to do that is to ask them what – if they bought something to wear that they’d absolutely loved and it’s still hanging in their closet, and every time they try it on, they don’t like the way it looks and they hang it back up – 99% of the time, it’s the wrong color for their skin tones. And they don’t really realize that. But it’s the same thing with makeup. As women age, they need to change their makeup colors, their eye shadow color, their foundation especially, because you know, there’s a big difference between wearing makeup that people can’t see it, versus this orange look up around the hairline.

MB: Short of hiring an image consultant or a color consultant, how can a woman, or a man, find out what colors are most flattering?

AH: Well, I would go to a department store – and not like your discount stores, either, but where they really care about dressing you and helping you, and just explain to them, you know, “I need to find a style that suits me now, and do you have the time to work with me?” And there is always somebody that will help them out that way, because they want to make a sale, right? So I mean, it – and with me, I went through the color processing thing with my skin tones and all this, so I know what I’m talking about, and I do have a good sense of fashion. And I learned all these fashion flubs in my life, so I help my clientele. And a lot of hair stylists are more than willing to do that. And if they go to a makeup artist – I mean, you know, the makeup people sitting in the department stores putting makeup on, demonstrating and stuff, they usually make the older woman look like a clown, so I would advise them to stay away from those places.

MB: Where would you go instead?

AH: The beauty college is one place to go. I think just about every city has a beauty college. And if you ask for a senior makeup artist and just go in and talk to them and tell them, you know, what you want and what you don’t want to see.

MB: Now, are beauty colleges – a cosmetology school, or are you talking about something else?

AH: Yes, yes.

MB: Interesting. Any other tips on the makeup or clothes or…?

AH: Well, one thing – don’t ever compare yourself to someone else. Every one of us are unique in our image and we need to find our own image and stay with it. If I – I watch all the trends that come out and I watch some of the celebrities that wear these trends, and I just go, “Boy, they ought to fire their stylist.” I mean, seriously, because if the trend looks good on you, go for it. If it does not look good on you, don’t be trendy.

MB: I was always amazed – Jay Leno just wears awful ties, and I couldn’t figure out why he couldn’t afford a good consultant.

AH: Well, and it’s either that or he might be just saying, “I like this kind of tie and this is what I’m going to wear. You can dress me the rest of the way but I’m going to wear this tie.” I mean, it could be that, too, because a lot of people don’t have a sense of fashion. If you’ve ever noticed – and you probably have people in your life – they really don’t have a sense of fashion.

MB: Oh, yeah.

AH: And I’m very blessed that I do and my husband does. And people are always coming up to us and saying, “Oh, my God, you guys ought to be models,” you know? And we just mix and match our stuff, and if we like what we see when we look in the mirror, then we don’t care what other people say or think.

MB: Does looking at Vogue, GQ, and those kinds of magazines, help or…? I mean, I look at them and they look like a different world to me.

AH: Well, they do, but if you pick apart the pieces of clothing, there might be a shirt that you like, there might be a jacket that you like, but you don’t like the whole outfit on that model. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that the fashion magazines make is they do not use the older models in particular, and yeah, what it is, there are almost 70 million people 65 and older.

MB: Other than ATLAST Magazine, do any of the magazines use older models?

AH: I think Dove Beauty is starting to do that with their – well, and their underline line and their Dove Beauty Bar. But it’s amazing that obese people in the United States now have like Monique with their own fashions and their fashion shows and stuff like that, but again, we don’t have it for the older generation. And if you look at Sophia Loren, Michelle Pfeiffer and all the guys and Madonna and Oprah, Sean Connery – just to name a few – Richard Gere – they’re all fashion icons. I mean, they don’t look ridiculous when they dress to go somewhere.

MB: Richard Gere is one of my favorites. What makes him look so sexy and so fabulous?

AH: I think it’s because he likes who he is. He’s himself and he enjoys and embraces life, which is very attractive to men and women. When you see somebody who loves who they are, they’re usually full of self-confidence. They’re not vain, they’re not into themselves so much, but they’re just comfortable and like who they are. So I think that is one of the things about Richard Gere. And he’s also a gentleman.

MB: For someone who is shy, how would they become more comfortable with themselves and more like the traits that you were talking about?

AH: Well, I used to be very, very, very shy and – I really did. My mother said I was the only one out of eight kids that used to hide behind her skirts when people came around. And you wouldn’t believe that to see me now. But one of the things that I did was I read a book called The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale. And I also married a guy – my second marriage – my first husband was killed in a logging accident and I was a widow with four babies, two, three, four, and five years old, when I met my husband. And he was the first person to ever believe in me. So a couple of years after that, I read that book. And then he helped me believe in myself as to I’m okay and, you know, blah-blah-blah, and that was a slow beginning. And then I went to work for Dale Carnegie Systems—

MB: Wow!

AH: How to Win Friends and Influence People. And the first time I had to get up there and talk in front of that class, I said, “I want to grow up emotionally” because I reacted with my emotions because I was so shy. And that class didn’t get me over it, but it helped. It was a big step towards what I was doing, and I finally learned from that class of watching people from every background and every different age come in there, and they all had the same fears and doubts that everyone is born with or lived with. And so I thought, “Well, they all put their clothes on the same way I do. They all have their fears of am I a good parent, am I a good husband or wife or whatever, so you know what, stop and think about this for awhile.” So that’s what helped me.

MB: I’m a huge fan of Toastmasters, which is a public speaking group which gets people to improve their public speaking skills, and the dues on it are nominal – I think it’s about $30-$40 twice a year. That’s a great way to build up self-confidence.

AH: Yes, it is. And I have two friends that absolutely go into a panic mode if you ask them to stand up and talk in front of anybody. And I found out later that they don’t have any self-esteem. So until they build up their self-esteem, talking in front of a group – I mean, I’m contradicting this in one way, I think, but when people don’t have self-esteem, you cannot convince them that this is going to help them.

MB: And one of the traits for celebrities that makes them so attractive and even sexy is this self-confidence. Are there other traits that really make them so appealing?

AH: I think there is. When you keep yourself in good shape – such as Tina Turner is a dancer, Susan Sarandon – I think she dances, too. But Goldie Hawn, Oprah Winfrey – all of these people keep very, very active and they do work out. And I’ve found in my own case that when I first started working out seven years ago, I gave myself a short-term goal of 30 days, if it didn’t make any difference in my life. And what I discovered it does, it helps you physically, mentally, and emotionally. And as you go through – I mean, keep active and stay busy and be positive, then you just develop this sense of who you are. And I had a lady after church the other day who says, “Well, look at you! Don’t you look good?” I said, “I know. I’m sexy, I’m fabulous, and I’m…” – whatever. And this lady said, “And obviously you don’t have any self-doubts.” And then she turned around – and I didn’t hear her say it, but my husband told me – and she said, “Your wife is one hot pistol.” And he said, “Yeah, and don’t get in front of her.” And people – the lady at the grocery store the other day says – and I was dressed down, I was dressed in a sweatshirt and a pair of Levis and feeling kind of like, you know, this isn’t really me. But we ran into the store and this lady was checking me out and she says, “God, you look great!” She said, “How do you make New Years resolutions to work out when you’re already in top physical shape?” And I just – we got to talking – she thought she was older than us, and she’s just starting a physical program to work out and try to lose weight. And she said, “Well, how old are you?” And I said, “Well, I’m not old.” I said, “We’re almost 68 and 69 in June.” She said, “Oh.” She said, “I just turned 60. I thought I was older than you.”

MB: Since I predict that we’re going to have a lot of Baby Boomers live to 150, that makes middle age 75, so we’re not even there yet.

AH: I want to know what age they are. If you noticed the other day I said to you, “What age are you?” I didn’t say, “How old are you?” Because when you say, “I am 67 years old,” that’s all people here is that “old.” They don’t hear the age. And basically, I think with these people, too, as we age, it’s an attitude of how we want to be when we age. And my husband and I decided several years ago that we don’t want to be old. We just want to enjoy whatever age we are and be in good physical, mental, and emotional shape. So we work at it. And it takes work, but the benefits are that we’re not on any medications at our age, and we stand out like a sore thumb. And you know, we’re hurting the doctors and hospitals, of course, but at the same time – exactly.

MB: Well, thank you for lowering our life insurance premiums. I appreciate that.

AH: And I think you’re going to find that more and more, that people have, especially the Baby Boomers, have redefined what age really means.

MB: An awful lot of women in their 40s, 50s, 60s, whatever, find themselves single or widowed. Sometimes there’s just – you can just tell that they’re interested and sometimes you can just tell their not interested. What’s the difference between the two, or how does a person who wants to send out the message that they’re interested develop that message?

AH: I think that they start working out at the gym. They start finding a different hair style or a different hair stylist sometimes, because like you say, some stylists are stuck in their routines and they don’t want to take the time to make a change with their clients, so they do find somebody else. But it takes a lot for a woman to leave their stylist because they’ve become friends with them. But anyway, if they – to me, this is what I’ve heard from quite a few people – they take up line dancing. If they’re into sports, they can go to a sports bar. Or they’ve got married friends who know somebody that’s single and would be good for them. And then there’s the ones that they’re afraid or they just don’t want another relationship at all. But I think a lot of married relationships grow old, just like an individual does, and they get into a routine. And one spouse is like, “Is this all there is to it?” But they’re stuck. So when that other – when their spouse dies, that’s when they start getting the energy back and looking for excitement in their lives. And that brings us to the cougars, who are the older woman who is dating or married to a younger man. And if they date a man their age or older, they’ll take them out to dinner, which might be McDonald’s or a quick food place and then go home and watch television, where a younger man will take them out to a real dinner where they get waited on and then take them dancing.

MB: I’m finding so many younger men are now interested in older woman. There’s the maturity there, there’s the self-assurance there.

AH: And they’ve left their emotional baggage behind.

MB: They appreciate each other more, the advantages that each age has to offer.

AH: Yeah, I truly believe that. And I have several people in my life who have done just that. In fact, one young man is 31 and his wife is 51. And his family disowned him for marrying, but he said they’re totally happy. And you know, just because the lady is 51 doesn’t mean she can’t keep up with a 31-year-old.

MB: If you look at Tina Turner, for example, who is in her 60s, I defy most teenagers to keep up with her.

AH: Exactly.

MB: Let me take a break here. This is America’s Anti-Aging Psychologist, Dr. Michael Brickey, with the Ageless Lifestyles Program. Today’s guest is ATLAST publisher, Anne Havelock. You can learn more about Anne and ATLAST Magazine at the website www.ATLAST.org. Remember, that’s dot org. And her email is Anne@ATLAST.org. Anne, since I mentioned your magazine, ATLAST, can you tell us more about ATLAST and how it’s different from other magazines?

AH: It is different from other magazines because it features older women and men, 45 and older, but it’s also recommended for all who will be. And the biggest thing is there are no magazines in salons showing these hair styles – trendy hair styles or fashionable hair styles, whatever you want to call them – for older people, and the older people can’t visualize themselves with a hair style that’s on a younger model. And after several years of listening to them ask how come there isn’t a magazine like that, I finally said, “Okay, I’ll put one together. I’m a hair stylist. I have no clue what I’m doing. We’ll see what happens.” And they also ask me about makeup, clothing – just about anything. A lot of the older women quit working, so they go to church socials or they go to a wedding or something like that, but they really aren’t with the modern, everyday, up-to-date things, and so they quit wearing makeup because they didn’t know what colors to go to. So I have some professional skincare lady from another – well, she’s from Oregon but she’s in another part of the state – who writes an article on skincare for each time. She wrote an article this time about the Baby Boomer women and what the difference is between them and, say, like me, because I’m six years older than the Baby Boomer but I’m a Baby Boomer thinker. And so she contacted me and wrote this article. And then we have a gentleman from Max Muscle Nutrition – they are a certified nutritionist – and he’s writing articles on this, you know, and the supplements and working out and why it’s important. And a lot of women think that they can’t lift weights because they’ll muscle out. Well, I’ve been lifting weights for the last two and a half years, and you don’t muscle out unless you take steroids, which I don’t.

MB: No. So pretty comprehensive in terms of lifestyle advice, and then we’re also going to see a lot of pictures of people who have a very nice integration of hair style, skin color, and wardrobe.

AH: Right. And it’s a role model for the younger generation to not dread getting older, because they see the sexy, trendy, fabulous, and fashionable older people in this magazine. And when you read ATLAST Magazine, you’ll discover – you’ll learn what aging really means and how to be fit at 40 and fabulous at 50 and sexier at 60.

MB: And I think one of the keys is that our culture has this idea that aging is all downhill and, you know, life gets a little worse as you get older, when the research actually says the opposite, that people are happier as they get older and there are a lot of other social perks, if you will. And when you come to believe it, then it gives you a lift and a brighter outlook. Magazines like ATLAST are part of the movement to help people realize that your best years really can be those 70s, 80s, 90s, 100s, 100-and-whatever.

AH: Exactly. And having a positive attitude – you are what you think as much as you are what you eat. So when – and Dr. Henry Lodge, who is on the faculty of Columbia Medical School and co-author of Younger Next Year, and he has written an article – when we don’t exercise, our muscles let out a steady trickle of chemicals telling every cell to decay, day after day after day. And on the other hand, when we exercise, our muscles release specific substances that travel throughout our bloodstream, telling ourselves to grow. So which choice would you make? Continue to be sedentary or get that body moving?

MB: And it’s going to product endorphins that’ll help you feel better. And also, our immune system doesn’t have a pump like our heart does, and so you have to have movement to get the lymph circulating to help remove the toxins.

AH: Exactly. And when you’re negative, your anger, stress, and loneliness are signals for starvation and chronic danger, and they melt our bodies as surely as sedentary living. And I also find that when you’re positive, you’re not as sick, you’re much more healthy, because you don’t – when somebody says to me, “Oh, my God, look at the headlines. This is just terrible, blah-blah-blah-blah.” And I say, “But you know what? Just pray about it and then think about something positive.” And ATLAST Magazine is looking at the positive way of aging and showing by example that being positive as we age and looking forward to every birthday we get is like, wow, this is really cool. Look at George Burns. He said he was going to live to be 100. And he did!

MB: And I used to think that he had made a big mistake by not – you know, he scheduled his big 100^th birthday bash, but he didn’t schedule one for 105 or 110. But when I did a little research I found out that he had a fall, I think when he was 96, and it was trying to keep that birthday date for his 100^th birthday bash that kept him going the last four years or so, despite a lot of physical pain. So having that goal and that belief that you really do want to life longer and healthier and happier really helps you get there.

AH: Right. And another thing is people say, “Well, I have arthritis,” or “I have this,” or “I have that.” Well, I have – I was diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my lower left back when I was in my 30s. I just kept doing what I was doing. Two years ago I found out that I have scoliosis in that same area. I have one disk gone, another one almost gone. And you know what? I have built up the muscle around this area of my back and I do not act or look or feel like I’ve ever had a back problem. And I leg press 140 pounds.

MB: Wow.

AH: But I don’t dwell on that stuff. I mean, a lot of people have said, “Well, Anne, you don’t have the arthritis like I do,” or “You don’t have this.” And so I couldn’t tell them, “Yes, I have.” And I said, “Think about it.” Three years ago next month I donated my left kidney to a man who was two years older than me, and I was back at work in two weeks. Eight months later, I had emergency colon surgery, was back at work in two weeks. And all my mother hen clients would say, “Anne, you’re overdoing it” and blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. But they watched me, and once I got past everything, they’re going, “You keep it up, girl. You keep it up. You know, we need to be more like you.” And so some of them in their 80s have taken up yoga, they’ve taken up walking, they’ve taken up watching their diet. So I’m a living example of – so I’m not in the most perfect health, but I am in my head.

MB: And you’re absolutely amazing. Your going back to work so soon reminds me of the George Hollis quote. He said, “It’s only work if there’s somewhere else you’d rather be.”

AH: Right. Well, I love my clientele and I choose who I do and I have a reputation for attracting the older client who needs a change and who wants a change. And they say, “Well, go see Miss Anne because she is an older hair stylist. She’s been there, done that, and she understands where you’re coming from and she’s work it through with you.” And if I have one that comes in that’s complaining about hairdressers in particular and blah-blah-blah, I only do their hair once and I’ll say, “You know, I’m not the hairdresser you’re looking for. You need to find another salon.” And I don’t tell them why, but if the fit isn’t there, why put yourself through dreading each time they come in?

MB: And when you know who you are and who you want to work with, you do better work, and then you attract more people anyway so it all works out in the end.

AH: Exactly. And that’s a benefit of being older, because I can afford to do that.

MB: Well, I think that’s one of the social perks with aging, that we become clearer about who we are, what we want, how do we want to go about doing it, and we don’t worry as much about peer pressure.

AH: Exactly. I don’t worry about peer pressure at all. And people say, “Well, your competition’s around the corner.” And I say, “No, I don’t have any competition.” “Well, yeah, there’s another salon right around the corner.” I say, “Yeah, but you know what? What I give my clients, nobody else gives them, and what they give their clients, I couldn’t give them.” So there’s room for everybody in this business, or any business you’re in. And talking about life and age as an attitude, if we live by the five Es of Excelling, Energy, Enthusiasm, Exploring, and Excitement, you’re always learning something new, not only about yourself, but about life. And that’s what keeps you going, even when the tragedies hit in your life. My husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer a year and a half ago, and we both – I mean, it was like the end of the world. And then we thought, “No, no, no. Let go and let God and just turn it over to him and it’ll be okay.” And he was – he chose the freezing and he’s totally cured of the cancer.

MB: And one of the things I think has made both your life and your husband’s life so successful is your approach to aging is very holistic. It’s not just exercise, it’s not just eating well, it’s not just looking good – it’s all of that and spiritual, as well, and believing in yourself.

AH: Yes.

MB: Anne, I want to – just for fun – give you a scenario. What if you had a client come in – the guy is, oh, maybe 50, just went through a divorce, just bought that red sports car, seems to be trying too hard – what advice might you give him, if he seems open to advice?

AH: Well, it’s funny because I had just – I have a client like that. And he’s very – what I tell him to do is I say, “Slow down and take your time,” because it’s just like when you become widowed. They tell you not to do anything, major changes in your life, for one year, because when you do things when you’re emotionally challenged – let’s put it that way – then you usually regret it. And if you don’t want to look back with regrets, just take it slow, take it easy. And he said his kids have a bet that he’s going to be remarried within a year. And I said, “No.” And he said, “Well, I’m not.” And I said, “You know, you knew you had a mistake 28 years ago. You stuck with it for 28 years because of the family and all this. So next time, you know, wait and find the right person that’s got the same kind of heart that you do.”

MB: When I was doing therapy I would often try to get people going through a divorce to make me a promise that they would not live with anybody for at least six months after their divorce and wouldn’t get married for at least a year after their divorce. And initially, they’re happy to make that commitment, and then you try to hold them to it, because it’s a bad time for making major life decisions.

AH: Yes, and I agree. And this young man is actually 51 and he’s been a client for 13 years. He says 15, so we’ll leave it at that. But he says that he is – he’s been wanting to write a novel, so he’s rented an apartment. He does not have to work for a year or two, and so he’s going to start his novel. And he says, “And you are an integral character in my novel.” And I laughed and I said, “Well, I hope it’s positive.” And he got a little upset, and he said, “Anne, how can you say otherwise? For the 15 years I’ve known you, you are the only positive person in my life.” And he said, “So yeah, it’s the way it’s going to be.”

MB: Wow.

AH: So I think that’s pretty cool. And you know, about working out and being fit – it’s not about having the perfect body, but it’s about being healthy as we age. And we all have – what I discovered a few years ago, we all have an impact on other people, whether it’s a stranger or somebody we see all the time or are related to. And I found out the hard way – and I felt so ashamed of myself afterwards, but I learned from it – I do have an impact on people. I didn’t realize I did. So the choice I make every day in my life is every person I come across, I want to have a positive impact on that person. And I’m not talking about having a fake image – you know what I’m saying? – or anything like that. We can be positive or negative in our reactions to other people and it can make or break their day.

MB: Oh, I saw a woman in a nursing home not long ago, and she was, you know, elderly and blind and had become kind of a pessimistic person. And I asked her to just, every morning, start off the morning with saying ten things that she’s grateful for. And before long, she was just excited about this, and now she’s teaching the other staff how to do this each morning, and they’re excited and they’re teaching their kids. And so I teach her – well, my goodness, this little old lady in a nursing home is impacting the whole world!

AH: You bet! Well, what my thing was, we changed churches eight years ago, and I said, “I’m not going to get involved in this church. I’m not going to be a reader. I’m just going to go to church, worship God, and leave.” And we have – we sit in the front pew so I don’t look at hair styles—

MB: You’re off-duty.

AH: So I won’t be distracted or anything. But these widows would walk by our pew, because we were first to take communion, and then they’d walk by, and their faces would just be hung in a frown. And one day I smiled at them – there were three of them – and the minute I smiled at them – because they always looked at my husband and I – the minute I smiled that day, their faces broke into this great, big grin. And I said to my husband later, I said, “How could I have been so rude and inconsiderate?” Because just smiling at these ladies made their day!

MB: There you go!

AH: And it has. And today we’re all good friends, and they just – they think Ray and I are the Camelot of their church – which we don’t like it that way. But it just takes a smile to change a person’s perception of what’s going on that day.

MB: And it’s amazing how many shy people don’t have anybody to talk to them or smile at them other than business transactions. So you may make their day with just a smile.

AH: Exactly. Here’s another thing. I had a new client about a year and a half ago and she was – she’s in her 70s, late 70s, and a very attractive lady – thick head of hair. It used to be red, and a redhead when they start graying is like a white wand and it’s just absolutely gorgeous. That woman had no self-esteem, she had no self-confidence. And I would talk to her about her hair. And I said, “You know, you’re very beautiful.” She cried! Right in front of me. And I said, “Well, look, I’m supposed to make you happy, not make you cry.” And she says, “No, I’m not beautiful or anything.” I said, “Yes, you are.” So two or three months later, after about the third haircut, she confessed to me. She said, “You know, Anne, I didn’t – it took me a long time to come to you.” I said, “Why is that?” And she said, “Well, I’m not worthy to step foot in your salon.”

MB: Oh, geez.

AH: And I said, “What are you talking about? I come from a very poor, dysfunctional background.” And she said, “No, you are the hair stylist in central Oregon, and I didn’t feel worthy to set foot in your salon.” And I got to talking to her, and her husband – she’s been married for 63 years, and nothing she said or did pleased her husband.

MB: Wow.

AH: So I started talking to her about being a doormat for other people and how the more you allow somebody to treat you that way, the worse it gets, because they don’t want to treat you that way, but you don’t stop them, and so they get more angry at you because you don’t set your foot down and say, “That’s not acceptable.” And I said one day to her, as she was leaving, I said, “Tell me something. What would you do if your husband died tomorrow?” And she looked at me without hesitation and she said, “Oh, I would just blossom.” And I said, “Oh, my goodness!” And she said, “Oh, no, I didn’t mean anything.” And I said, “I didn’t take it that way.” But it turns out that she’s a fabulous piano player. And they would go some place – he’s antisocial, but when they did go someplace, if she played the piano, he sat in the corner and pouted with a book and then didn’t talk to her all the way home. And I said, “You know what I would do? I’d go back to playing my piano and just let him act like a little baby. Because after a while you can just say, ‘Look, I know you don’t like me doing this, but I have to do it for me.’” And she started taking little steps at a time. Now she had me weave color into her hair. I said, “So what do you think?” She said, “Well, I know my husband’s not going to like it, but I do.”

MB: Well, and I’m getting very concerned about this. You’re going to drive the psychotherapists out of business by doing all this therapy in the salons.

AH: Well, you know, we’re better therapists than bartenders are because—

MB: They’re not going to remember if they drink too much.

AH: If you think about it – well, but the biggest thing is, is we see women at what they perceive their worst, because their hair is wet or it’s half-curled or it’s half-colored, and they really are a mess when we’re working on them. And if there’s nobody else in the salon or it’s a private place, they really confide things, and especially things you don’t want to hear.

MB: Well, I think there’s a lot in common between the kind of therapy that I do and what you do in the salon, in that somebody comes in and I see what the possibilities are and what they can be and where they need to be, and then figure out how to get them there. And you do the same thing with how they look and, to a big extent, how they feel, as well.

AH: Exactly. Because my job is – they say, “My hairdresser is a magician. Make me beautiful.” And I tell them, “I cannot make you beautiful because you’re already beautiful.” And oh, they argue with you. And so I explain to them, because I’m a very logical person. I say, “Think about it, all you bring, everything you bring in to me is what I have to work with. You bring your face in, you bring your hair in, and it’s my job to enhance what you bring to me. But I can’t make you any more beautiful, but I can enhance your own natural beauty.” And it’s my job to make them look good. So I look at your hair as an extension of the personality that’s wearing it. Does that make sense?

MB: Yeah. One of the things I’m inferring from this is – particularly for women, to some extent for men – that if your hair stylist is just a good conversationalist and it’s like fun to see an old friend, you’re selling yourself short. You really want a hair stylist that sees your potential and helps you grow and look better as you age, instead of just do the same thing each time.

AH: Exactly. And if I have a client that has color put in their hair and a perm in their hair, I tell them, “You either need to color it and no perm or perm it and no color.” And they ask why, and I’ll tell them, “Aren’t you upset because your hair is too dried out?” and stuff like that. And as we age, you know, every medication that they take inside their body comes out in their bloodstream, which feeds your hair. And a lot of times this frizzy look that you see is because of the drugs that are in their system. And so I tell them, “When you put chemicals in there with color and a perm, even though they’re a week apart or six weeks apart or whatever, it causes too much damage. So if you do one or the other, you don’t need both of them.” And they appreciate that. And it’s like – you know, I turn down the money because it’s not the money I’m concerned about; it’s their overall wellbeing, the feeling when they leave the salon – when they come in negative, they leave positive. And that’s my goal is to make them feel good, not only when they look in the mirror, but how they feel inside themselves when they leave.

MB: Wonderful. And one of the questions I wanted to ask you, there are so many hair care products and so many cosmetics out there, it’s just overwhelming, and they all have these wonderful claims. How does a person sort out what makes sense, and particularly what makes sense for their budget and lifestyle?

AH: Talk to your hair stylist, because we’re not only trained in how to cut your hair and perm your hair, but we’re also professional product lines that we’ve experimented with, that we’ve used, and there’s some that’s good, there’s some that worked better, and blah-blah-blah. And the products do make a difference in the hair performance. And I’ve had clients come back after a month and say, “Well, you know, my hair never looks the same as when I leave here.” And I say, “Well, what are your products? What are you using at home?” And they’ll tell me a brand they bought in a discount store or a drugstore. And I’ll tell them, you know, why that product isn’t good for their hair. And so then I educate them on the product that I’m using, which is good for every type of hair. And I explain which product they should be using. And actually, an analogy for the product line is this – because I’ve had a lot of older people say, “Hey, shampoo is shampoo,” and men use bar soap sometimes on their hair. Well, if you go buy a silk blouse or a silk shirt, 100% pure silk from K-mart and then you go buy the same 100% silk blouse from Nordstrom’s, you’ll see the difference in the material. And that’s the same thing with the products.

MB: What kind of mistakes do you see men and women make with hairpieces?

AH: They put them on and they’re the wrong color, for the most part, and they’re not fitted to their head. And what I recommend is I have a client who went to wigs, and each wig that she bought, she made an appointment, came in, and we fit it to her head shape and cut it to match her hair that it used to be that isn’t there anymore, and people can’t tell she wears a wig.

MB: Is there anything that women with thinning hair can do to help their hair look fuller?

AH: Well, there’s a lot of good shampoos and styling products on the market with added fullness to them, volumizing shampoos and volumizing texture styling products. And I know that probably 60% or better of my clients have that same problem. And I have fine hair and I don’t have a perm, but it makes – everybody says, “Oh, you have such thick hair,” and all it is, is a haircut and the product. And the haircut makes a difference in the fullness of the hair, too. I mean, anybody can cut hair. You can cut hair. But to style-cut hair is a huge difference – when you know the head shape, when you know what you’re doing and how you’re doing it and why you’re cutting it this way, it makes a huge difference.

MB: Is there anything that you’d like to share with us before we wrap up?

AH: Well, I think I’ve covered so much. You know, I think the biggest thing is don’t compare ourselves to others and just be comfortable who we are and learn more about who we are. And you had asked something about what’s the difference between older people who look useful compared to those who look ridiculous trying to look younger? And the youthful-looking ones are the ones that are keeping themselves healthy by mental, physical, and emotional good health, and up to date on what enhances who they are. And the ones who try to look younger usually do it by face uplifts and too tight clothing, too much skin exposed, or hairstyles or hair color wrong for their skin tones. And so I think age is an attitude and we just need to love who we are.

MB: Excellent advice. Well, this is America’s Anti-Aging Psychologist, Dr. Michael Brickey, with the Ageless Lifestyles Program, and today’s guest is ATLAST publisher Anne Havelock. And you can learn more about Anne and ATLAST Magazine at the ATLAST website, www.ATLAST.org. Her email address is Anne@ATLAST.org. And that magazine has been around for five years. Most magazines don’t last one or two, so that’s quite an accomplishment, and happy fifth birthday!

AH: Thank you very much. We’re excited at our growth.